Interview with Joanie Winberg
Joanie Winberg is a Certified Behavior Specialist, 54 years old and lives in Boston, MA. She is the founder of the National Association of Divorce for Women and Children that is a 24/7 resource center for divorced women. Feel free to visit the Association’s website at Freshstartafterdivorce.com. Joanie inspires people with the midweek boost, and you can sign up for it at HappyWednesday.com.
Joanie believes that the main cause of many conflicts is that there are different personality types, and that no involved person has the skills to appreciate the others for who they really are. When she works with people who are divorcing, she is mainly concerned about the kids and encourages parents to step forward for them.
Andrea: Please tell me about a situation when you didn’t dare to speak out and explain why.
Joanie: I have to really back up here a minute because I am a certified behavior specialist. I work with families as well as corporations in helping people understand, not only themselves, but to start to understand others so that they can create better relationships and build better teams. But before this certification, I think I was like every other human being, where we don’t really have the tools to understand why others do what they do or why we do what we do. So at times when I would not stand up for myself or take care of myself or protect my boundaries, I would think, “Well maybe there is something wrong,” or “I am being weak…” or that type of thing. The more I learned about the different styles of personalities, I recognized that there is one particular style that is very reserved, shy, and does not really feel that they want to share or want to take care of themselves at times because they are more interested in harmony, teamwork and everyone getting along. In fact, it bothers them more if there is any kind of a conflict.
But I have worked with many, many women all over the world, and with this particular style, they always thought that there was something wrong with them or that they were weak or that they were stupid. I had them really understand more about themselves, that this is who they are; it is like their DNA and that is how they were born. It is extra effort on their part to really stand up for themselves at times and make sure that they do take care of themselves. But in order for this particular group to do that, they need to feel safe, and they need to have a safe environment to let their guard down and feel that they can open up, and not only share but take care of themselves.
Andrea: Did you personally belong to this group when you were younger?
Joanie: Yes, as far as it refers to my particular style of how I was born. That is describing my personality. We are all blends of many different personalities, but this is my primary personality where I want harmony and I want peace and the last thing I want is for someone to have a conflict. So I wouldn’t necessarily speak up because I wouldn’t want the conflict.
Andrea: Could you tell me about a concrete situation when you didn’t dare to speak out when you were younger?
Joanie: Actually, I owned a business with my former husband, and most of us marry opposites. He was definitely the opposite of me; he was more dominant and demanding and he could make a quick decision. I was the opposite of him where I would need to process the information more and if I didn’t feel safe, I wouldn’t speak up. I would want harmony with the employees and he would make a lot more independent decisions, and this was a big conflict for us. Not having the tools to understand this, I don’t think it really helped the marriage and I see this in a conflict all the time with couples and even understanding their own kids. So if I knew then what I know now, I would have understood that we were different and we were opposites. I would have seen that there were times when I really needed to stand up for myself and know that it would be OK to do that, and that we are not always going to see eye-to-eye. I would have recognized that there might be a little bit of a conflict, but at least I am taking care of myself and protecting my boundaries.
Andrea: Why was it conflict for your husband and you that you didn’t speak out and he liked to speak out?
Joanie: It is a conflict just for most people, since we are opposites and we don’t really value what each person is bringing to the table. We don’t understand that people are unique, that they have their own perspective and that they hear us differently. What I might be saying might not necessarily be heard by someone. They could hear my tone as something different; people don’t have the skills and the knowledge to understand that what happens in conflict is misunderstanding. We make assumptions and we take it personally and there it goes - that snowball effect. Now, I know these skills and I have this knowledge. Now I understand that this was just really who he was and that it wasn’t anything personal or anything that he was trying to do on purpose. The same thing is valid for me; that I was basically who I am, but not purposely wanting to offend him. He didn’t understand me any more than I understood him. This represents the conflict, not only between partners or spouses, but families, children, corporations; I do a lot of corporate work, and for the bosses and the employees it is the same thing. None of them have the skills to appreciate each other for who they really are.
Andrea: Can you think of a situation when you wanted to say something back then but you just didn’t dare to?
Joanie: There were probably many times when I would not say anything because this particular style of personality wants that harmony so much, that I tend to not say anything or speak up. What can happen with this particular personality style is that if the person is holding it in and then holding it in and holding it in and not speaking up, it might come to a boiling point. It is almost like you get tired of that and eventually you just blurt it out. You say whatever you are feeling and then people are so shocked that they will say, “Wow! You are having a bad day!” Or, “What is wrong with you today?” Because they are so not used to you standing up for yourself that when you do, they are shocked. It is finding a happy balance.
I work with a lot of women especially who are this particular style and helping them stand up for themselves, but it is really called taking care of ourselves or protecting our boundaries and knowing that it is healthy and OK and that you need to do that. You are doing it in such a way that it is not causing conflict. You are just having another person understand that you have your own feelings and you have your own opinion. It is really hard for people who are used to being the harmony type people. I’m sure you know many who seem like they are always going along with the flow and want to keep everybody happy; that is the group that has the hardest time taking care of themselves.
Andrea: I would like to know how you made the transition. When was the first situation when you dared to speak out?
Joanie: Basically, it was when I became knowledgeable and educated on understanding others. I didn’t realize there was information that was available. Once I became certified, I had so many “a-ha” moments. It was still kind of a funny feeling to stand up for myself, but then I thought, “I need to do this. I need to get out of my comfort zone. I need to take care of my boundaries.” There were times even in the business where I would take care of myself or stand up for myself without feeling totally guilty that I did something wrong or that I hurt someone’s feelings. It eventually became a stronger tool for me to know that I can do this and it is OK.
Andrea: You educated yourself and you participated in the education and then you recognized that you can do it without guilt?
Joanie: Yes.
Andrea: I wonder, as a behavior specialist, how do you help people to speak out?
Joanie: The first step is really for them to believe in themselves and the goal is to build their confidence. I actually take them through a whole process that helps them see themselves first. It also helps them understand who they are and that it is in their DNA and that there are other people that are opposites and their opposite is more of a powerful, dominant, demanding person and that this is OK. I actually had one client say to me, “Oh my gosh! Because I make slow decisions and my spouse makes quick decisions, that does not mean that I am stupid!” I said, “Absolutely not!” But because her husband was a very strong personality and he could make decisions quickly and she would always say, “I really want to think about it. I have to process it. I can’t make this decision so quickly”, she was more or less intimidated to think that “What is wrong with you? Why can’t you?” When she saw that this is who she is and that it is her personality style, she just believed in herself unbelievably by saying “Wow! There was nothing wrong with me. It is because I need to do that. That is who I am!” Wasn’t that great to hear?
Andrea: I think so!
Joanie: Now she is standing up for herself more; she will never come on like a real powerhouse type person, but she is understanding and knowing that she has to stand up for herself and protecting her boundaries and not feeling guilty about it.
Andrea: You mentioned the four personality types and one is the shy person and one is the dominant person and the other two are?
Joanie: We are all a blend of personality styles, but the four primary ones are: First, there is the dominant, demanding doer. The second one is more of the inspiring and very much the talkative people person who loves to have fun; probably a lot of comedians would be in this group. The third group is the group that I have been talking about; they want the harmony, the peace and everyone to get along and teamwork and they are shy and more on the reserve side. The fourth one is more an analytical kind of person and asks a lot of questions and wants to know all of the details. Those are the four main types, and we need all of those four types for a corporation to work. When I do corporate work, it is great for the CEO to see that they have a mix of all four in his company to make it function. Those are the four main types, but as I said, we are all blends.
Andrea: I visited your website and saw that you are the founder of the National Association of Divorce for women and children. Why did you found this association?
Joanie: I was actually divorced 12 years ago and back then, we really didn’t have a lot of coaching or training or anything to help us get back on our feet. It is a very lonely feeling and it is very scary. Now I work with women all over the world through business and personal coaching and consulting. I also work with a lot of family law attorneys and they said, “Joanie; we need something for our clients. We have therapists, which are great, but we need something to help them move forward with their lives. Can you form some kind of 24/7 resource center? Can you create a mentoring program?” So I work a lot with family law attorneys throughout the US and we have actually created what they have been asking for. It is a huge need, and I know here in the US divorce is over 52%, so we need to help those women, and men as well, to get back on their feet to be the best role model that they can be for their children. Who we are really thinking about are the kids.
Andrea: Is it true that women who are going to be divorced lose part of their self confidence and that they don’t speak out that easily anymore?
Joanie: They lose a lot of confidence, especially if they have been on the back burner, so to speak, for 20 years and if they have been a wonderful mom and wife and been more in the home environment. Then they need to get out there and all of the sudden have a job or a career. That is scary in itself, but some women have been in a situation where they have been verbally or physically abused and of course their confidence is about zilch. They have no self esteem, so we really want to help them, because once again, they are the role models for their kids. So if their kids can see them grow and be healthy and believe in themselves, what a great thing for their kids to see.
Andrea: What do you do exactly to help those women? Do you help them get a lawyer or maybe help them finding a job?
Joanie: Actually they come to me through attorneys. Some of them are in the process of divorce and some are in the phase after divorce. The mentoring program works on what we call, “Self coaching skills”. So we work on communication skills, and this is a lot of what we talked about earlier, and we work on stress management, time management and coping skills. We also work on helping them for the future for their vision and their dreams and their purpose and helping them create goals. If they need to find a career, we focus on the self coaching skills, and as I say to them, I want them to be able to self-coach themselves because I can’t be with them 24/7, so that is my goal. Then once again, their kids see them feeling this great about themselves, and they become a great role model.
Andrea: That is very important, I think. Can you give a specific example of how you helped a woman in gaining self-confidence and in speaking out?
Joanie: A woman that I worked with last year was recently divorced and it was her first time that she was invited to a party with mutual friends who they used to have together as a couple. She was scared to death and her mind was really working overtime of all of the horrible things that she thought were going to happen. But she knew that she wanted to go and a part of her was almost ready to talk herself out of it, but she felt, “I have to start doing this and get out of my comfort zone.” We had one of the exercises that we work with a lot of the women and it is to set intentions of how they want to feel. I said, “How do you want to feel when you leave that party?” She said, “I want to feel relaxed and I want to feel like I had fun. I want to feel connected and I want to feel as though things are going to be OK and this was the best thing I could have done.” So she was really putting a lot more positive energy into her whole thought process versus all of the negative stuff that was coming up. It also helped her step out of her comfort zone for sure and to stand up for herself knowing that she is not going to be intimidated to the degree of not going. She called me the next day and said, “Oh my goodness! This idea of putting in the positive energy of really focusing on that; this really works! I had a great time! I met my old friends and they accepted me and there was not any of this stuff that I thought was going to be happening. They were happy to have me there and I just had so much fun!” That was a joy to see, for sure.
Andrea: I was on another website where you are called “The Happy Wednesday Lady”. What does it mean?
Joanie: Happy Wednesday is a podcast and is heard in over 25 countries. It is 2 minutes of tips and quotes because I kept hearing from my clients, “Oh Wednesday! It’s Wednesday! Three more days and I am making it to the weekend!” I said, “Wow. You just wished three days of your life away.” Wednesday kind of gets the bad rap. It is known as the hump day and I thought, “People could use a midweek boost. So let’s inspire them and forget about hump day and make Wednesday a power day.” We have people tuning in from all over the world on Wednesday morning through their email and their podcast, and they just hear a nice quote or they hear a nice story and they hear something positive. Sometimes I might even suggest a little way for them to work on some things or do this or do that. I just hear from people saying, “How did you know that I needed to hear this today? You changed my day and my whole way of thinking about this. Thank you!” That is what brings joy to my heart. It is helping people to think differently on Wednesdays. Think about Wednesdays maybe as a day that you do an act of kindness or maybe you would forgive someone or maybe call someone and tell them that you care or that you love them, or maybe you would do something great for yourself. My vision is, Andrea, if everybody was thinking about this kind of stuff on one day of the week all over the world, wouldn’t that be empowering? If every Wednesday people were doing an act of kindness or telling someone how much they care? We will worry about the rest of the week later, but at least we can focus on one day.
Andrea: I heard that Monday is a bad day as well.
Joanie: Yes; Monday is a hard day to get motivated and get psyched to get back to work. I find that on Wednesday people start thinking about the weekend and start thinking, “OK; how can I get through these days till Friday?” That is still wishing those days away.
We just want to inspire people. I love opening up my email on Wednesday because it is just so exciting to see people connecting all over the world. There is a huge group that found me from South Africa and it is amazing that they write and say, “Thank you! I appreciate this!” Then I have someone from Japan and it is just wonderful.
Andrea: Is it possible to sign up for this on your website?
Joanie: Absolutely. Just pop your email in and go to “HappyWednesday.com”. There is a little box for your email, and then you will get the Happy Wednesday quotes and tips every Wednesday.
Andrea: That is very interesting and very tempting.
Joanie: The other thing is that we have kept it very short. If you notice, I said it was about 2 minutes, and we also have an audio, so if there are people that don’t want to take the time to read it, they can just listen, and we keep it very short and sweet. We did a survey at the very beginning of Happy Wednesday when we started about 2 years ago, because we found that if it was something lengthy and long, people wouldn’t have the time, but we found that people would stop for about two minutes and listen or read something and then go on their merry way. We keep it short and to the point.
Andrea: Do you speak out when you eye witness abusive situations? For example, if a parent is abusing their children when you see them walking on the street?
Joanie: I have never seen that. I think what I have seen were people who are calling their child “stupid” or something like that and it just breaks my heart. That can be a very touchy situation for sure, but you can’t help but think about that child. At times I have said something like, “Kids will be kids” or something that is trying to get the message across that honey works better than vinegar. Our children do test us, but what is something great about that child?” I might even say to the child, “You have a beautiful smile,” and I might not say anything to the parent because the parent is upset at that point, but I might just say something to the child to compliment her or him so that the child is not feeling so bad. It is pretty humiliating to be called “stupid” in public. So just say, “You have beautiful blue eyes and I love your smile.” What this is really saying to the parent is, “You know what? This is a pretty neat little kid” It is sad to see how this little kid is treated and it just breaks my heart.
Andrea: Do you think that you could make the situation worse if you tried to help?
Joanie: I think that you can’t really say anything to the parent, because that did happen one time and I just complimented the child. It really stopped the mother in her tracks without feeling that I was saying anything about her, but it helped to stop her thinking about that child. That he really did have a nice smile and beautiful eyes just gave her different energy versus focusing on what he was doing. That is a safer way. You have to really be careful today!
Andrea: Yes, because you don’t want to make it worse for the child.
Joanie: Yes, and I don’t know that person’s position and I don’t really know what is going on in their lives. All you can do is think of something positive to say and hope that it helps avoid the negative stuff.
Andrea: Can you think of a situation when you spoke out and now you regret it?
Joanie: I have seen a situation recently where I spoke up for a program that we were doing, and I believe that everybody has value to bring to the table and to offer their opinion, because that is how we learn and grow and that is how we can be better. This particular person didn’t see that my information was knowledge; instead it was taken more personally from this person and they were very defensive. At that point there, I just kind of had to smooth it over and have them understand that I value their opinion but also that this is my strength and that I would like to share it with them. I have come a long way.
Andrea: We all have come a long way.
Joanie: Years ago, I would have never spoken up or said anything. Because I have my confidence and because I believe so much in what I am doing, I look at it as it could help or make it easier for everybody. It is not that I want to change the whole format, but please hear me so that maybe we can help make the project run smoother. I have the confidence to say, “This is my thought and I would like to share what my observation is to maybe help this project” You have to be careful and watch your tone and you have even to make the statement as, “May I share my observation with you?” Or, “May I share my thoughts with you?” That is a non-confrontational way of sharing.
Andrea: I talked to a very nice lady last week who was married and she told me that she mostly doesn’t speak out in her marriage. She sacrifices her right to speak out to the relationship because her husband would get upset very easily. I think they are getting along very well, and she told me that you don’t need to be understood in a relationship. What do you think about it?
Joanie: Personally I disagree with her, because if you are not your authentic self, if you can’t speak your mind or share your feelings and you are holding it in, then you are living in a false world. In my opinion, in order to have a powerful and close connected relationship, say for example, a marriage, it has to be where both people can be vulnerable and feel safe enough to share their feelings and feel respected. I don’t want to live in fear that if I say something someone else is going to get in trouble or someone is going to be upset. It almost feels like a child/father relationship versus a husband/wife relationship. Personally I feel as though it is not a true, authentic, vulnerable marriage if you have to walk on eggshells.
She is really selling her soul. She is not able to be herself. I don’t know because I have not talked to her, but I would have to believe that there is some sort of resentment underneath that she can’t be herself. Yes, she is sacrificing to have a relationship, but is it really a healthy, true relationship? That would be my question.
Andrea: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who want to learn to stand up and speak out for themselves?
Joanie: Part of it, first of all, is to be aware of your tone, because some people can come on so strong that it turns people off right from the very beginning. We all have something great to bring to the table and we all have value. As human beings we want to feel heard and we want to feel understood. I am helping married couples not get divorced and it feels really great. What I am really suggesting to these couples is to take time for themselves at least three times a week for 15-20 minutes and to shut the TV off and to shut the phones off and to shut everything technological or electrical off and literally spend this time on themselves. They would take walks and they would learn so much about each other. They would appreciate each other and they would truly be listening without interrupting and without fixing it, but just honoring each other and giving each other that time, and they would be amazed at how much they learn about each other. My suggestion is to give each other that respect and to know that you have the right to be able to share the information of who you really are.
Andrea: I understand it very well. Do you think people should stand up for themselves and speak out when others try to take advantage of them, for instance, at work or at home? Maybe if the boss is trying to take advantage of an employee or the husband of his wife?
Joanie: There is one word sometimes that I find that women should say to their spouses, and it depends on their boss’s situation; one little word helps that person realize that what they just said hurts, and all I ask them to say is the word, “Ouch.”
Andrea: That is cool!
Joanie: In fact, I have done that myself, and it stopped them in their tracks because they didn’t understand what they said or how it hurt, and all I said was, “Ouch!” They looked at me and said, “What?” I said, “I am just letting you know that this didn’t feel too great. That hurt!” It is amazing that it takes it off of me of feeling guilty or having to say anything to them and I have just plopped it back in their lap to be responsible for their tone and their words. I love it.
Andrea: That is a great idea.
Joanie: As you can tell, I love what I do and I get so enthusiastic. My goal is for people to communicate with each other and to get along and to know that it can be. I just wrote an article, “How to Have a Happy Marriage and Keep it That Way.” I just know that divorce doesn’t always have to be, and I am really an advocate of helping people stay together, because to me it is awful how it hurts the kids, how it hurts the families and how it hurts the community. So my goal for my clients is to be happy and to get along.
Andrea: It is great that you not only help divorced women, but you also try to help those who are married to stay married.
Joanie: Absolutely. I do work with men myself, but I find over the years that generally women are the first to raise their hands to say, “Help!” Men are not as comfortable doing that. I have coached men through divorce and after divorce, but even when I have said to men, “I have some great information that I would love to share with you if you are ready and if you want to…here is our program and you can have a free consultation…” A lot of them won’t take me up on it. But women are the first to say, “Count me in.” The bottom line is that we want to help society and we want to help these children, so I don’t care if it is the man or the woman that is ready to do the work to step forward for those kids.
Andrea: Yes, the kids are the most important humans in these situations.
Thank you very much for the interview. It was a pleasure to talk to you, Joanie!