Interview with Sue Larson
Sue Larson has her own business as an Interior Designer. She is 48 years old and lives in Tacoma, Washington, just south of Seattle. Her advice on speaking out is “Have confidence and if your heart is telling you that speaking out is the right thing to do, then do it. However, take into consideration the consequences of what will happen if it doesn’t get received well.”
Andrea: Sue, please tell me about a situation where you didn’t dare to speak out and explain why. Can you give me a concrete example?
Sue: My son is in Boy Scouts, and I am on the Boy Scouts committee. The parents were meeting, so my husband and I had talked about doing the next campout. Sometimes there are campouts where the boys travel out into the wilderness. Some of the boys bring electronic equipment and it kind of excludes them from the whole purpose of why they are together out in the wilderness. We thought we should address this to see if the troop had the policy of when the boys are allowed to use them and when they are not. I had the perfect opportunity to bring this up at a parent meeting and I held off bringing it up just because it wasn’t the right time. There was a person in the meeting who was more dominating and I felt like I didn’t want to get jumped on, so I didn’t bring it up. But I will probably bring it up at another time when I feel the atmosphere is a bit better. Some parents don’t want the electronics and some do.
I prefer when boys are actually camping, that they are doing group activities together and one or two boys are not off in their tent listening to music or watching a movie. It kind of defeats the purpose of the Boy Scout program.
Andrea: I understand what you mean. They could do the same thing at home.
Sue: It is just that they are being so exclusive and they are not being inclusive as far as working as a group. That is the whole philosophy: You are a team, you have a leader, and you mentor the younger boys in a progressive way. I don’t want to take away someone else’s privileges. Perhaps another parent may feel that it is perfectly OK to use electronics during the camp. At the time I intended to bring up the discussion, I wasn’t prepared in a sensible way to lay out my thoughts and find the right balance. So I had the opportunity and I believed I was going to do it, but then I decided, “No; I think I will wait and bring it up another time.”
Andrea: I understand. Please tell me about a situation when you spoke out although it was difficult for you and explain how you found the courage to do it.
Sue: About 9 years ago I was working as an Interior Designer for a large
local healthcare facility and headed up the interiors department. I was working for a firm and the hospital hired me directly because it was a good relationship. The hospital used the same architectural firm for many years. I was considered to be the lead designer and I had three designers working for me. One day the director of my department to whom I reported came to me and said, “Sue. I have just been told that an interior designer from another design firm is going to give a presentation on a remodel for one of the hospital's wings. I don’t know anything about this. Can you attend this meeting to see what is going on?” We were both unable to attend, so we asked one of my backup designers who was very responsible and we trusted her to sit in for us. When she got to the meeting there were nurses and the nursing manager for this department that was going through a major overhaul and they were requesting our services on one of the wings. There was also a designer from Portland who had a full presentation laid out and knew everything about what was going on, what the plans were and what the ambitions were for the staff. We were the designers for the facility, but we were not aware of any of this.
My backup designer sat there, observed, and took in what the designer from Portland was proposing to evaluate, if she was more skilled, and if this company did bring something to the project that we were not able to. She came back and reported to me that there was nothing of that sort. We thought perhaps they decided to hire someone else to work with us as a team, that they wanted them to be the lead but we would still be working with them and collaborate as a team in a professional way. However, none of that was happening.
After my backup designer reported to me, it was my obligation to contact my boss who was waiting to hear how this meeting went and who was not in the area. I went to her supervisor and said, “How should I get in touch with Jen?” She said, “I think it is best if you do it through email.” That is why I wrote it down in an email and said, “I need to report what we found.” So I wrote an email to my boss and I thought it was only going to my boss. It outlined our feelings for the designers in the department and how we felt about being excluded and how we felt it was wrong. I also felt that I needed to defend the positions of the other designers as well as my own. The reason why I felt confident enough to speak out is because I had worked there for about 5-6 years and had gained some recognition through my work. That is why I felt more confident that what I was saying was accurate. In the past, I didn’t speak out because I was a bit more timid and less sure of my work, or I was keeping quiet because it was not my place to speak out. However, in this situation I felt that I needed to speak out and address this as a concern and a problem because I was supervising.
So I spoke out through an email and my boss supported what I said and she felt that her boss should hear exactly what my words were. She forwarded my email to her boss, and she also forwarded it on to her colleagues in construction services. From there it made the rounds to the architectural office and then through the vice presidents.
Andrea: Why did she send it to everybody?
Sue: She sent it to two people thinking it was the right thing to do. I never would have dreamed she would do that, but that is the problem. You never know what is going to happen with something you write. I didn’t have the opportunity to speak with her in person so it ended up that way. If you work so long for a company, then you give your all and you want to do your best and you are proud of your work. In the end we still worked with the outside interior designer and they never did the remodel project because it didn’t go through. So they spent a lot of money on something that never even worked out. It cost about $40,000 for nothing, I had hurt feelings and my boss tried to defend me. She went to the architectural firm and said, “I am really disappointed, since Sue was my best designer and I have lost her now.”
Relationships with the architectural firm and some hospital employees had deteriorated to the point that it was best for me to leave. I ended up resigning from my full-time position and I went to being an on-call contract worker.
Andrea: Was it your decision?
Sue: Yes. At that point it was my decision to do that. I felt really let down and I felt that I didn’t want to give 100% anymore. My boss supported me, but she held back. Part of her fear of not pushing any farther on the issue was, because of her age and her longevity with the company, she was hoping to make it through a few more years until she retired. So I understood her position of not wanting to rock the boat as much as I maybe would have liked.
So then I stayed on with the hospital as a contract employee. This lasted about a year and a half or two years.
Andrea: How was this time for you? Was it a good time at work?
Sue: It was OK, but when I had to work with the architectural firm, it was uncomfortable. The last project I worked on with the hospital was basically a larger version of the project that they wanted to hire somebody outside for. I felt that I really wanted to work on it and I wanted to prove my case. Everybody working on that project had some of their ego invested in it, so it turned out to be just a mess and then everything crashed.
At that same time administration had decided to take the interiors department and put them under the construction services. My new boss would have been this gentleman who never really approved of the fact that an interiors department was started at the hospital. So he would have been my new boss and I would have lost my boss that had originally hired me and that I had a good working relationship with. I was called in on a Friday and told they were letting me go. I felt that was a payback from this person. He cited that there had been two complaints against me, but yet in December, a couple of weeks prior, I had my annual review and nobody ever mentioned any of these complaints. It was very frustrating and I ended up talking with the new vice president of human resources about it.
I met with the woman that headed up human resources afterwards and she was very sympathetic about my situation. We agreed that it was time for me to move forward and leave, which I did. It felt like a payback for them to be able to get rid of me because I had caused trouble. I felt that I had to speak up because it was important enough. Since then, I have been reluctant to join a company and I have not worked for an employer for five years. I have my own business now.
Andrea: That is great. You don’t have any boss. Nobody can fire you. Do you think you could have spoken up in a different way without causing any trouble and maybe staying with the company?
Sue: I probably could have spoken up in a different way and just not addressed the emotional side of how we were feeling at the company. I think it probably would have boiled over at some point. There are times when you see something that is wrong and then it gets you and you feel you need to take a position or say something.
Andrea: I understand this very well. Do you think that these people who caused you trouble taught you something?
Sue: They taught me that I hurt myself because I was speaking out too freely. I felt more comfortable with speaking out because I was feeling at the height of my career.
Andrea: What was your professional goal before you had that trouble?
Sue: I had attended design school and immediately after that I landed a pretty good job. I was feeling pretty good because some of the work I did was being recognized and received design awards. I was qualified and I was good. I wasn’t just mediocre; I was better than good; maybe not great, but I was exceeding expectations. I felt like that I got overly confident and I was paying the price.
Andrea: Do you think you didn’t take care enough?
Sue: I had to speak out. Did I learn something from it? I learned that I could have addressed it differently, but I didn’t have willing partners on the other side to work with me to find a solution either.
Usually I try to be careful not to say something that would be offensive to anybody. Apparently in the hospital situation, I had too much passion in my voice or too much emotion around that situation.
I think as you get older, you want to speak out. After I hit 40 years old and had a child, I felt that I was more comfortable speaking out or speaking up in situations.
Andrea: So when you were young you were shy and timid?
Sue: I was definitely shy because I have always been bashful, but since having these email conversations with you, I recall when I was about 17 years old I lived in Minneapolis and a K-Mart wanted to build a brand new store in right in the heart of the city and close a street off. I thought that was just terrible. I was kind of an activist. They were letting this large corporation close down the main street and have to detour the main street around this business. I think there have been times when I have seen something that just doesn’t make sense to me and I have done something. In regard to the K-Mart plans, I am sure I wrote a letter or I talked out about it. I am very calm and calm and calm and then I just reach a point where I say, “Oh no. That is wrong!”
Moreover, I got very involved in our last presidential election because I thought things were wrong. I was putting myself out there and doing things that I never thought I would do. I started knocking on doors and trying to get them to vote. It was very uncomfortable to speak out and support a candidate, but I did it and I know a lot of people that couldn’t do it. They wanted to do the same, but they absolutely couldn’t do it. I don’t answer my own door. The reason I was doing it was because it was so important that I had to push myself beyond that. I felt that I had to make a difference, and it did make a difference.
Andrea: It is a good practice for speaking out.
Sue: We have reflected on what kind of personality I have, but it is very uncomfortable for me to speak up in front of groups. I turn beet red.
Andrea: Would you like to speak out more often?
Sue: I would love to speak out more often. I would love to feel comfortable speaking up all of the time.
Andrea: Why is it difficult for you to do that?
Sue: I need more self confidence and I would like to feel comfortable with what I am saying. It would serve me better to not be afraid of what others would think in a negative way. I guess I have always been a person who likes to please others and who wants people to like her. I don’t want people to be angry or think I didn’t do something well..
Andrea: You are working as an interior designer in Tacoma. Do you develop the designs of houses and apartments according to the owner’s personality? Do you try to reflect that?
Sue: Definitely. If I have a new client, I always listen very intently about what their needs are. My goal is to take their needs, to take my design expertise and then blend the two together. My goal is to deliver them concepts and products that exceed their expectations.
Andrea: If you propose a specific design for someone’s house and the people don’t like it, do you try to convince these people?
Sue: It depends on what it is. l am not going to try to convince a client that likes a more traditional home to go with an ultra-modern home just because I think it would be best. This is not serving the client. If a person has a traditional style, I would try to work with the style that they like, but yet give it a fresh, modern feel. I am not a designer that is going to push my own views onto a client. I feel it is my job to take what they want and make it look professional and fresh so that we are both satisfied. I am not going to stick with one style. For me, being a good designer means being able to do well in all styles. You do have a particular style that you prefer yourself, but you need to know how to do a good job with all styles.
Andrea: That’s a good approach. Do you think one should sacrifice one’s right to speak out for the goal of having a long-lasting relationship or partnership rather than a short-lasting one? Some people think they should stay quiet and calm in order to stay in the relationship.
Sue: I think at some point you have to weigh the balance of how important the issue is that you want to speak out on and pick and choose which issues need to be addressed. If it was an abusive thing and I didn’t speak out just to save a marriage or something? I don’t think I could do that. I would have to speak out.
Andrea: Do you speak out when you eye witness abusive situations, for example on the street when parents treat their children badly?
Sue: I would probably find some way to speak out or I would at least take the steps to find out what to do. I would check with a professional first to ask the best way.
Andrea: Sometimes you can’t ask someone because no one is there.
Sue: I have never been in that position, so I am trying to think if I was in a shopping mall and I saw a parent striking a child. If I saw something really egregious, I would probably feel I would have to somehow say something or do something.
Andrea: Based on what you have learned and experienced in your life, what advice would you give to people who want to learn to stand up for themselves and speak out?
Sue: Have confidence, and if your heart is telling you that it is the right thing to do, then do it. However, be careful to not say anything in an offensive way or in an accusatory way and just weigh the situation. Take into consideration the consequences of what will happen if it doesn’t get received well. I guess you can bring up good things by speaking out.
Andrea: Speaking out is a great way to improve situations, relationships and partnerships, but you have to do it carefully and not in an accusing way. Do you regret that you spoke out in a specific situation?
Sue: I think it is more regretting not speaking out, such as sitting in a meeting and feeling too timid to put your own opinion in.
What I can’t stand is that if you take the risk and you say something, and then no one else speaks up to support you. Afterwards they all come out and say, “I am so glad you said something!” and in your head you are thinking, “Why didn’t you say something?”
Andrea: Can you think of any way how you can get more support?
Sue: I think the only way you could get more support is just before going into a meeting you discuss it and ask people to back you up. You say, “I really want to talk about this topic” and if you know that the person feels the same way you ask them if they would help you out with that.
The last two weekends, I have participated in a worldwide youth organization, a program called “First Lego League”. The kids basically have a Lego Mind-storm Robot, and over a series of months they learn how to program it to accomplish tasks on a course that is given out each year. This year the topic was climate change.
They have to do a research project where they have to present to the judges. My son, who was part of this team of seven to nine kids, did not speak because he is bashful and he doesn’t speak up, like his mother. He has great ideas and when he is not in front of people, he talks, talks, and talks, but when he is in a classroom setting, or for example in front of these judges, he does not share his knowledge. The first competition was two weeks ago and they actually won our region’s competition so last week they had to go to the final state competition for the entire state. We had to threaten him that if he doesn’t speak up and share his portion of the presentation, he would be letting down his teammates by not sharing with the judges what his knowledge is.
So I said to him, “Jack; you have to do this. You have to overcome this fear. Nobody helped me when I was young to overcome my fear and I will help you because now when you are young it is the time to overcome that fear and not be afraid of what others will think.” I went to some of his teammates and said, “Girls, could you please support Jack to speak up?” They understood and I said, “He doesn’t want you to know that he gets nervous and is a little bashful, so don’t let him know that you know. If there is a way that you can bring him into the discussion, then please do it.” The judges asked them a question and one of the boys said, “That was Jack who did this part.” So it was an introduction for Jack to explain what he did. Getting back to having others help you before you go into a meeting is a team effort so that you can share your expertise.
Andrea: You are already teaching speaking out to your child.
Sue: I feel that it has held me back that I was afraid of going to meetings and giving presentations, and I don’t want him to experience that. I want him to be comfortable but not dominate a conversation either.
Andrea: That is a wonderful perspective, Sue. Thank you so much for this insightful interview!
